In this episode, we dive into the dynamics and challenges of intergenerational workforces in the transport sector. With up to five generations working together side-by-side, the episode examines how different values and perspectives shape workplace culture.
Click below to listen online, or subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music or Audible. You can also download our whitepaper on Intergenerational Workforces on our Research page.
Listen to a clip
Podcast guests
Our guests for this episode are:
Clare Murphy, head of HR at RHA
Amber Murdock, a graduate transport planner at McCullough
Hosted by Shireen Ali-Khan, Clare and Amber share their experiences and insights on creating inclusive environments that facilitate knowledge transfer and collaboration.
Key topics include the impact of life stages, the benefits of hybrid working, and the importance of mental health support. The discussion underscores the need for genuine human connection and continuous dialogue to make the transport sector more appealing and sustainable for future generations.
-
Sonya Byers: Hello, I'm Sonya Byers, Chief Executive of Women in Transport. Welcome to Season 3 of the Women in Transport Podcast, where we're sharing the voices and stories of women from across the transport sector. Each episode, we explore the experiences, challenges, and triumphs of those shaping the industry, spotlighting the power of representation, allyship, and leadership at every level.
Thanks for tuning in. Let's dive into today's conversation.
Shireen: Welcome to the Women in Transport podcast. I'm Shireen Ali-Khan, and in this episode, we are diving into one of the most fascinating and timely topics shaping our industry: intergenerational workforces.
For the first time in history, up to five generations are working side by side in transport. Each brings different expectations, different values, and different ways of seeing the world, and that diversity is both a challenge and an incredible opportunity.
Today we're exploring the findings from our Intergenerational Workforces whitepaper. What's working, where the tensions show up, and how organisations can build cultures that help every generation connect, contribute, and thrive.
If you're a leader, a manager, or simply someone who wants to understand how to build stronger, more inclusive teams, this episode will give you insight, evidence, and a lot to think about.
So let's jump in with some introductions. Welcome to our guest today. Would you like to do an introduction, so Clare and then Amber, please?
Clare: Yeah, sure. Hi, I'm Clare Murphy. I'm head of HR at the RHA.
Amber: Hi, I'm Amber. I'm a transport planner at McCullough.
Shireen: Wonderful, thank you. So, as you know, we're talking about everything to do with intergenerational workforces, which is a real hot topic in the sector.
Arguably it’s something that our sector has been doing for a while, actually, is my kind of perspective. We can deep dive into some of this as we have our discussion today, but what does an intergenerational workforce look like, particularly where you work?
Amber, I'll come to you first and then I'll come to Clare.
Amber: Well, I'm the youngest in the company. I'm 21, and the person that sits next to me is 66. So there's a very, very various age gap in our industry. Especially in our office.
Shireen: And how did you find that first coming into the offices? Because you came in as an apprentice, right?
Amber: Yeah. I was intimidated, like on my first day, my boss was like “I thought you were going to start crying.” But I've slowly got used to it. And the woman I sit beside now, she's literally like an auntie to me.
So those moments get easier, but you get intimidated because they have so much experience.
Shireen: Thank you. And Clare, from your perspective at RHA, but also wider in the sector, what have you seen?
Clare: Within the RHA, I had a look at this and we've got four generations working within the organisation, and actually within my team, there's only three of us and there's three different generations.
So it fascinates me because I think that there's so much that we can all learn from each other. Certainly, I’ve got, as I say, two different generations within my team, and I've learned so much from them around their views and their ways of working, which are different to mine.
We're all different, right? But I think that we're constantly learning how to communicate with each other in different ways. Because, you know, other generations do communicate in different ways to me in particular, and I just think it's such an enrichment of learning.
Shireen: Absolutely. I love that idea of just sharing our competencies and capabilities and, with the whitepaper being launched, I know that one of the findings was all around how do we support teams in general to be cohesive and to grow and to have that knowledge transfer and that opportunity for people to communicate.
Have you noticed that the mix changes age perspective-wise or even life-stage, and how has that shaped the culture within your team?
Amber, you said when you came in initially you might have been a bit intimidated, but you've forged some really strong relationships by the sound of it.
Amber: Yeah, it did take a while. Because obviously the different age groups - we have all different ways. Like I would do some things differently, the 66-year-old would, but now overall, like starting to know which way they approach different age groups. Like if I was dealing with something, I would approach it differently towards that woman and then explain it to her.
I feel like the older generation is a wee bit more like go, go, go, go. Like it needs to be done for the younger generation in my office. Like take it as it comes.
Shireen: Tell me more about that. Because I feel like there is this perception that younger people, you know, Gen Zs are clock in, clock out. We don't care about work. And I'm just throwing the stereotypes at you because how does that make you feel when you hear that?
Amber: That's something I'm actually speaking to my boss about. It's like the younger generation, they're all painted with the same brush. Like just because some of the younger generation don't want to work, don't want to leave home, that's not the same for everyone.
Yesterday I started work at seven o'clock in the morning. I left work at nine o'clock last night. So we do stay till, well, I know I stay, till I get the job done and the lady's the same. The other night she was here at half 10.
This is a difficult sector. You can't really do your job and go home because it's 24/7. Like it never stops.
Shireen: Absolutely. I feel from my perspective that I've learned, but also I felt more able to talk about my boundaries and red lines because other people have normalized that. And, and for the first time in my life, and I'm not the same age as you, but actually I felt like the first time in my life I've been able to say, no, that doesn't work for me. And it's through learning from other people.
Clare, what's your perspective on that cultural piece?
Clare: I heard what you said there, Amber, and also yourself Shireen around that empowerment, that certainly I've got to find my voice and to be heard and to give my views and give my opinions. And I think that younger generations, again, I'm stereotyping, but certainly within the experiences I've had, I've learned that from that generation in terms of what I will and won't accept, and what my views and opinions are. And they're important and they need to be heard.
And I think that's where there are certainly some struggles with older generations because they see, perhaps, experience as something that means that they can have a loud voice, and that that should be considered as the decision that we're going to make.
But actually, every generation has a different perspective and you can just learn so much. I've certainly felt the same in terms of being empowered by my colleagues, using their voice, going “oh” actually empowers me to use my voice and go, “actually no, I will be heard. And this is my view and this is my opinion.” And people need to hear that.
Shireen: Yeah. How great. And I just wonder: from that older generation perspective, and I will talk about the middle generation in a second, but from that older generation perspective, and I talk all about knowledge transfer and succession planning, but actually we know that life expectancy's gone up, and when people are talking about pensions, it's always in the press. And actually I feel like there'll be a non-retirement age at some point, but if we know the people are working into older years that were not normal for us, is what I'm getting at. Like there was this almost, you've, you've hit 65, what's your retirement plan? And I don't feel like that's the norm now.
I feel like we open up the conversations around what's the next phase of your life, the next phase of your career, as opposed to a hard line stop now, and obviously everyone's individual preferences, but how do we support the older workers to feel that they can ebb and flow and adapt and change as their health needs might need or their life needs might need.
I've had organisations having grandparent leave, for example, where grandparents are taking more of a role in their children's children's lives. How? What are we doing to support life stages? What are we doing to support the mentoring process where older workers can mentor younger or junior staff, actually really, not necessarily younger people, but those junior people coming in. What are we doing for all of that? What does that look like for our sector?
Clare: Yeah. I think certainly that knowledge transfer is key, but I think that works both ways. You know, in terms of yes, an older generation may well have experience. But like you pointed out, Amber, you might have a better way of doing it because that's just your way of working is different to their way of working.
I also think there's a piece around technology, and the younger generation being very adept with technology because they've grown up in the age of things happening on phones and tablets and things in real time. I want stuff now and so on, and so they're really good at it, right? So they’ve got a role to play in terms of that knowledge for older generations.
And also there's flexible working options, right? It's about widening our mindset in terms of if people are at later life stages and they still want to work, but perhaps only two days a week, or three days a month, or whatever. And there's a role for them to play within the organisation, then that's what we should be encouraging people to come forward and do. And I think the more we do that, the more we role model that and the more it then becomes normalised.
And, you know, people need to stay in work for longer because they have commitments longer now in life. So embrace that and actually keep those skills, but perhaps to a lesser degree for them because they want a more flexible work-life balance whilst they look to do different things outside in preparation for not working and so on.
Shireen: Yeah, absolutely. Amber, your perspective?
Amber: Personally, I don't think it's really something that's talked about enough in our sector. It's like, I don't know how to spin it. It's like the older generation are still expected to like work the same as the juniors. How do I explain that?
Shireen: No, you're spot on. Absolutely. That expectation that you just do stuff the same way you did yesterday.
Amber: Yeah. I think because transport's 24/7, everyone's expected to be 24/7. It's like there's no off days for either generation, but it's going to be hard for the older generation to keep up with someone who's got no kids, no commitments. They just go to work and then go home and they get to relax. For the likes of people with children, they have their life outside of work, so then that's going to tie them down.
Shireen: Yeah, absolutely. Spot on. And some of the conversations that we've had as part of the whole Intersectionality workstream is all about those life-stages.
So we had a paper last year on the Motherhood Penalty, and there's another episode of this season that revisits that topic and, exactly, there are expectations. I'm just taking motherhood in isolation. But there are biases that will occur. There are things that will occur and part of the solution of that topic is actually, if you make caregiving easier for everyone, then you make it easier for mothers to not then leave the workforce. And the numbers of women leaving the workforce are just crazy.
We just launched a paper on the menopause in the workplace. Again, another opportunity where women and anyone who's got a womb can leave the workforce because they feel unsupported. And you're talking about something that could take a decade between you having first symptoms to right the way at the end and say, “I've got my menopause flag”. But actually that’s a decade of you losing someone, but also that person feeling quite confused in themselves because they're going through this real kind of biological shift.
And that's just two things. So, yeah, I think you are absolutely right. You've got somebody who's older, who might have different health needs.
What we haven't discussed is things like dementia or Alzheimer's or Parkinson's that aren't necessarily just age specific, but, you know, tend to be those of an older age. How are we supporting that within the workplace? What does that look like? So I think you're right that we're not talking about this enough, and I think as we get more data, we have to support people in different life-stages, because what's the loss and the loss you are highlighting? We are in a sector that's 24/7. If we don't acknowledge that, then actually what's the cost?
Clare to you, because I know you're doing a lot of work in this area, but what is the cost if we don't talk about this?
Clare: I think that's it. And I just wanted to come in on something you said there around things that we can do and widening that thing. So we've got things like carers leave, that isn't just about time off for looking after children, but it's about many of our people look after their parents, and they need time off to take them to appointments, to be there for them to support them through that difficult life-stage. And so we offer that.
And we promote that and we talk about that with our managers in terms of normalising that it's okay, there's a framework there whereby people can take the time off and not feel guilty about that. And actually it's really important to do that.
It's not just about people with kids, but it's about people that have caring responsibilities.
Shireen: I feel like transport, policing, and healthcare, probably education as well: they're all sectors that are core to society, but also are intergenerational. Because we used to have this whole job for life thing, which we don't necessarily have now.
But just from your perspective on all of that, what do you think?
Clare: It's again raising awareness on things. So talking about diabetes - that's another big thing that we've been doing a lot of work on with diabetes safety organisation. And we've just done a employer's guide on drivers' guidance around diabetes. And that again is about talking about a subject that there's a stigma attached to it, because people are perhaps fearful and that's what our research has found: that people are fearful about coming forward with health conditions, because they may well lose their job.
And actually by speaking about it and learning about how diabetes manifests itself in the first place, but also then how to deal with it when it does happen and someone has that as a condition. It's about educating employers on how they can keep people in employment with those conditions, and let's face it and actually deal with it rather than walking away.
It's the same with men's mental health. So we have our RHA Next Gen group. So that is a group of professionals within the transport sector that are under 35. And they are a really active community group of people that want to give their perspective, want to give their view. A couple of weeks ago, we recorded a podcast led by them on men's mental health, and that was in collaboration with a charity called Andy's Man Club. It’s all around men's suicide prevention and areas like that. And the next generation I find are very open to talk about issues that affect them. In particular, that one was around how drivers within the transport sector are very isolated because they spend a lot of time on their own doing long hours, anti-social hours, and so on.
So it was around opening up to them and actually showing that vulnerability going “Find someone to talk to, speak to your friends”. How do you deal with that? How do you struggle with that? And therefore, how do you then find solutions to help to improve your mental health?
So there's a lot that organisations can do, and a lot of that comes back to communication, education, raising awareness, and talking about stuff like Amber referred to earlier. We don't talk about this stuff enough and we're all struggling with something, right?
Shireen: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like there's a lot of presumed information and I wonder if that's where the intergenerational workforce can really help.
An example that's came to mind when you spoke about men's mental health: my dad worked for British Rail and he'd worked for about 50 years before he retired. And I remember he did see a lot of people either struggling with mental health, like passengers or people who were about to commit suicide or who had committed suicide.
And I remember. A few times he would talk about it when he'd come home from his shifts and he'd be like, “this is why I stayed late”. And it was weird because I was a child - we were having these conversations, but I was very aware of life being traumatic in some sense. But he never sought any mental health support.
But I remember when his colleagues started to seek support because times were shifting. Yeah. It was really new for him and he was a bit like, “wow, okay. I'm happy to support my colleagues now”. Because he was quite senior. He was having to support his team in something that he didn't get support for.
And I just wonder, as time goes by, there will be times where you might not have received the support for something, but you are then having to support somebody else because times have shifted and taboos have gone and that kind of tokenism is changing. I think mental health is a really big one for our sector, for lots of different reasons.
And I'm obviously giving a very frontline example there. But I think when you see stuff and you work with people, there will be times where the culture shifts, and I do wonder by looking and acknowledging life stages and that human approach where, if we take motherhood as an example, and I reference that because when we did the roundtables, there was somebody who said quite a bit of candour, “I find it difficult because I wasn't supported during my maternity or return to work that I'm then having to be the leader and support others”. And she's really honest in the difficulty of it. But I do think that's the support that we as an intergenerational workforce can provide for each other.
Because we get to shout out saying, “that's wrong, we need to change that”. Or actually, “do you know, I've seen this thing and it might work. Have you thought about this?” And everything we're describing is about being a human being and having a conversation and acknowledging that we don't entirely have all the answers.
And you might know something that I don't know. And how do we have that real, intersectional, intergenerational, just everyone as human beings getting along. What if love really was the answer? Like how do we support all of that? Learning where it isn't tokenistic. So how do we generally make it sustainable?
Clare: I think you are right. I think it's that constant. I. It does feel like a battle sometimes, doesn't it? In terms of it not being tokenistic and, like you've described earlier on in the conversation, Amber, around the fact that you are sitting alongside people from completely different generations and age groups, and that should be celebrated. That should be talked about, and I suppose brought to life in more detail in terms of how brilliant that is.
You know, we should be celebrating difference, we should be learning from each other. And it's not about having a policy in place necessarily, but it's about those groups of people learning from each other and then carrying on that in different generations and different groups.
Amber: Yeah, definitely. It's like I definitely take away so much knowledge, and I feel like I've gained experience even though I wasn't there, but from listening to the lady sat beside me; I feel like I was there. Like I feel like I've been working in transport like 30 years. Yes, I still have a lot to learn, but from the various age groups within our office alone, everyone's gaining so much experience.
And it is something, as you say, it should be celebrated.
Shireen: Isn't that the value that you're describing there? That's the value of the network, isn't it? Because we say to people, find your tribe and create your own board where you've got mentors and advisors and people to guide you. And I feel like, Amber, what you've just described there, right?
I've been in the sector for 30-odd years. I feel like that's the combination of the knowledge and that kind of osmosis and that just being in the environment where you can learn from people, communicate, but also try your own thing. Make your own mistakes, because I think it's really important for those fresh perspectives to be acknowledged.
And you have to make your own mistakes, and you have to forge your own path, but also to acknowledge where people have done things. And there are processes and ways, but it doesn't mean either is right, that it just means that there's an opportunity for all of that to come together.
But it feels like there's a real value in the network there, and you've got that. Maybe accidentally, maybe on purpose, but what have you done particularly Amber, to help cultivate those relationships? And what's your organisation done? Or was it kind of a really good accident?
Amber: I was brought in as an apprentice. So I was the kid of the office when I first started, because I was literally 18, fresh out of school. I didn't even know how many pallets you could fit on a trailer, never mind anything about transport. And then now I am seen as just a normal worker, but I am seen as like the baby of the office and everyone does look after me.
But I work on what's called the GB desk, so we're like a family. There's Hazel, so she's like our auntie and then it's kind of like a family dynamic now. I'd be like Hazel “back in your day”. And then she'd be like, “oh, you young-uns” and stuff. We do make a joke out of the gap in our office, because I would say to her, “well, you're old enough to be my granny”. And then she would just make jokes back at me.
But I think that helped us build a stronger relationship and understand each other better.
Shireen: Yeah.
Amber: Hazel, whenever, say for example, the storm that's about to happen, boats are cancelling. Her reaction to that would be loud and it would be dramatic. Where I would just see it as “oh, it's just something that's happened, just need to find a way around it”. So I would kind of calm her down and then she would give me knowledge on how to deal with it, because obviously with her working 30 years in transport, she's dealt with many storms.
Yeah. So we just kind of work with each other and I would kind of cool, like put out her fire, because she would be very like hot-headed and stuff. But the other older generation in our office tend to be like that. I feel like from maybe whenever they first started, being loud and the dramatic side of things was a way to show you were getting work done.
Or like dealing with things. Like the younger side and even the middle generation in our office, we're all a bit like, “oh, it's happened - we're just going to have to deal with it”.
Clare: Yeah. That's so interesting. I was just going to come in there. It's just so interesting you say that because I think it's so true, isn't it?
And I think it's that. You said it early on in the piece around just seeing things as they are and just dealing with things as they come along, and there's no drama and it's a really pragmatic, solution-focused, calming way, and I can see that exactly the same in my colleague where I've learned that she just carries on under the radar and just gets stuff done with. And it's incredible.
And that's why I think it's so valuable to have all generations working together in a team because, you know, you are the calm in that storm, excuse the pun, but that's such a good example of how it works in real life.
Shireen: Yeah.
Clare: Brilliant.
Shireen: I was going to say, shout out to Hazel because this is it, isn't it? Because you mentioned around having a sense of humour, because I do think we take ourselves so seriously, don't we? It's like, oh, I've got to do some work and I've got to do this. And you are right. I think there was that culture of… it is almost a competition of who's the most stressed. And to be stressed, you have to be vocal about being stressed and who had the least sleep, because if you sleep less and it means you're busy, and if you're busy, it means you're successful.
And I feel like that culture has shifted in some senses, but also not because there was a time where that was valued. And I feel like a lot of us are maybe questioning what the corporate world could look like.
And I do want to take us on a little bit to talk about COVID and I kind of explicitly say that because Amber, you mentioned you came in as an apprentice, and just looking at the timing wise, that was either just, I think, was that just after COVID that you came in? Yeah, five years ago now. Like crazy, about half a decade before we actually had a pandemic starting. So what was that period like for you leaving education and then coming into the workplace?
Amber: Because the end of my education was so on and off. Because obviously like my A Levels: it was at home, predicted grades, so you got used to being in the house, and obviously transport's not a sector where being in the house is really an option.
I had COVID in September and I actually had to work from home for two weeks, and because I couldn't come into the office and dealing with that after being in the office environment, because I could plan something and it could change 30 seconds later, but I would know that from being in the office. So being at home, you think what you've planned is happening and then you find out, oh, it actually didn't happen.
I think COVID kind of restricted… like it makes it put in your own bubble. Like you get so used to being by yourself and being at home, and then you have to come into this big, massive sector. Like we have transport warehouse, customs, we have so many different sectors within this sector of our business.
You just have to kind of adapt to even hearing people's voices. Like I know sometimes from the office gets really, really loud. I'm like, “oh, I can't be dealing with this” because I got so used to having to deal with stuff alone or in a quiet environment. And transport is definitely not quiet.
Clare: Yeah. It's that awareness piece, isn't it? That not everyone is going to be thinking about that overstimulation and how that's affecting you. Yeah.
Amber: Another thing I did think COVID had a positive effect was with the technology side of things. I feel like COVID encouraged everyone to learn how to do things through technology. Like probably before COVID Teams and Zoom calls, it wasn't really a thing; you had to be on site for meetings. Yeah. Where now it's like, “oh, just jump on via Teams”. It's made the adoption of technology, being so important in advancing within the sector, a bit easier.
Shireen: Yeah, I think so. And I think when we talk about the generations, you've mentioned what your workforce looks like. We've got maybe four, five, and actually soon to be six generations. So Gen Alpha are the younger ones… everything's about Gen Zs, but actually Gen Alpha are soon to be 16, and will soon to be coming into the workforce. So we have up to six generations.
I just feel that's a thought to contend with where people have got different starting points and every starting point is right, and every starting point is okay, and how do we honour everyone's journeys? And just taking that COVID situation where you are effectively the COVID generation, where your education as you said was kind of stop-start, and then you had to go into the office.
You've spoken around how, which I hadn't really thought about, but that kind of stimulation aspect. And similarly for me, I've since COVID started working from home in a way that I hadn't done before. So what would it be like if I went back permanently into an office? It'd be now it's a bit of a treat for me to go out actually into an office. But pre-COVID, it was very much like people right into your face on the train every day. It was crazy. So the world is very different.
For me, hybrid working has enabled me to continue working at the same rate and capacity and growth. But actually I'm really conscious that those coming into any sector actually, but any kind of working environment, they do need that mentoring, that support, all the information that you just gathered by being in the environment.
There's all that stuff that you can't really put a name to, so how do we honour all of that?
But certainly from the Gen Alpha perspective where they have seen hybrid working, probably independent on role, of course, but they've seen probably it as a norm. So is their expectation that it will stay this way? What are their preferences? What are they wanting? What are their learning requirements? How will they learn? So these are all really new things.
And so I feel like when we talk about intergenerational workforces, we need to acknowledge where we are today, towards the end of 2025, right? So even then, this is a timestamped conversation, and we've got our paper that's coming out as we speak, and I think as listeners are listening to this, the paper would've come out actually, how do we honour those recommendations?
That roundtable conversation all took place through collaboration, so acknowledging where we are as a sector. But what I'm getting at is: this is a today conversation, but how do we support the growing generations that are coming in?
That's why I referenced Gen Alpha, because it'll be the generation past that. How do we acknowledge and keep our sector growing and thriving and making sure, certainly from a UK workforce perspective, that we are competitive internationally because we get this thing right? And it's a big question.
I'm kind of throwing it all at you there, but how do we move forward to keep this conversation going? How do we get it right? How do we honour everyone?
Clare: I think, yeah, something that struck me then was around the kind of employee retention expectation. It is about, look, being aware that people are not going to stay in a job for as long as they did. It's not a job for life anymore. So maybe it's a two- or three-year job. And people will move on. So therefore, the idea is to, get as much out of that experience of having that person with you before they then move on to the next step in their career. That's a really difficult one, but you've got to embrace that.
And also on the other side of it. You've got to look at attracting people with that in mind in terms of you've got to offer hybrid working options. Like you say, my 23-year-old daughter only knows going into an office twice a week. So therefore her next role will be… that will be the expectation. And so we've got to embrace that and not see it as a barrier and not see it as a blocker.
But actually, you'll have that person for two or three years and then they'll move on. That's a fact of life because that's just that generation and they don't want to stay in those roles for years and years. Some do, but the majority may not. So it's how you can get the best out of that experience before that person then moves on. Yeah.
Shireen: How do you get the best out of that experience, and from your perspective, how would you get the best out of someone? How do you support someone in the right way? What would be on your wishlist for support and transport for supporting you?
Amber: I do think the transport sector does need to look at hybrid working, the flexi time situation. Like my brother and sister both work and they'd be like, “oh, I'm using my flexi time”. And I'm like, “what's that?” Yeah. Or my brother would be like, “I'm not going into the office today”. And it does give other sectors a more attractive look, whereas transport, you're on site, you don't have that option. They only go into the office a couple of times a week, and I know for my age, that is very, very appealing. Like not having to sit in traffic, rush hour traffic every day and stuff.
I do think the transport sector does need to be a bit more open. The times are changing, like people can do their jobs not being on site. Yes, it is a busy, quick environment. But there's phones; people can lift the phone up. You're contactable through the use of technology like you are in the office. I do think it's something that really does need to be looked at to keep the transport sector growing and make it attractive. Yeah.
Shireen: So maybe part of that is being innovative to just try things, what's working, what's not working. I do feel like there's a drive, certainly like the role that you've described, to get people back into an office environment.
But what we have learned is that it's all up for grabs and everything's possible, and it's okay to try things and see will it work, rather than saying no straight away.
But I think what I'm getting at is how do we support people? To actually have a life, but all complete business needs. And I completely understand where business needs might ebb, and there are some roles that are more site-based. I completely get that. But is it all or nothing?
Amber: It's like the transport sector is being innovative, like modernising trailers, fleet going to electric, gas. But what are they doing for the people? It's like that's forgotten about. Certain companies focus a lot on how their trailers look sustainable. Their fleet, is it diesel, gas, electric? But then you have people in the office that are still doing the same thing as what was being done 20 years ago. Like they're not thinking about how to innovate that option.
It's like the people of transport are being forgotten about.
Shireen: I think that's so insightful, and I'm wondering, some of the stuff that you described, does that come because we are thinking about being competitive as a company, but also because there's mandates for things around fuel, around the way vehicles like compliance is what I'm getting at.
But actually, what about human beings? Where does the guidance and then the kind of compliance come for how we treat people?
Amber: Yeah. It seems to be the focus, maybe it is with the new laws, but the focus is updating your fleet, updating trailers, updating sites, who has the best looking office, but nobody's thinking about the people in the offices. I would happily work from home one day a week.
Clare: But then I think that's right in terms of what, you've just hit the nail on the head there around if the transport sector doesn't do something about it, then they won't have the next generation wanting to come and work within their organisations, and people like you Amber will see that going to work in a different sector fits more with your work-life balance because if you can go and work in another sector and only go into the office twice a week and do your flexi time and all of that, why wouldn't you do that?
So it's a call to action really, isn't it, in terms of we've got to do something about this, and by talking about it and raising awareness of it and sharing best practice as well. I think that's really important, Shireen, around really picking out what organisations are doing about it that then shares that best practice and go, “actually, we could do that”.
And it's the small things, not necessarily making big radical changes, but really small things that could make a difference and therefore attract and retain. And continue into the next generations as they come along into work.
Shireen: Absolutely, that's what we want, isn't it? We want people to, yeah, we want people to stay. Whatever that looks like from a life perspective, when it means moving around or whatever, we need people we know, and this is what drives a lot of these conversations, is how do we keep the retention rate from dropping? Because these are real things that are backed by data.
And listeners, please download the whitepaper: there's a series of recommendations that are in there and it absolutely declares a call to action. If you are doing something or you wish something could be done better, drop us a note, mention it. Because this is all through collaboration. It is not in isolation.
We want to hear from people and we will be doing more work on this area through the days, the weeks and months. Because we want this to be a live conversation where we don't just have it now and that's it. We want this to be something that grows. So if you're doing something or you want support in a certain area, then reach out.
Okay. So as we're bringing this conversation to a close, Clare, Amber, just tell us and our listeners and anyone who's interested in this topic: what are some real tangible things that we could be doing to raise awareness to ensure these are conversations that don't just happen once and then that's it, essentially to make sure that it is not tokenised?
Amber: It's something we generally make a sustainable part of our practice regarding the topics. For mental health, a lot of companies have introduced like a… I haven't heard of a transport company that has introduced that, well close by to me anyway; I think that is something that would be beneficial. And then it would show the transport sector trying to change and grow towards like humans. It's a small step, but at least it shows they're trying to be innovative.
Shireen: Yeah. I love that. Innovative with how we support mental health. Yeah. But also just having that real human approach is what I'm taking from that.
Amber: Yeah.
Shireen: Yeah.
Clare: Yeah. And accepting that we're all human and we all, you know, need some time. And I mean whether it's things like you just touched upon there, but even like we've started to introduce 25-minute, 50-minute meetings so that then you get five minutes or 10 minutes before your next meeting. So it helps you with that back-to-back meeting culture that sometimes exists.
But also having those strong networks. For us, we've just introduced wellbeing champions.
So we've got a group of nine people in the organisation that've had some awareness training on the five areas of wellness around giving back to the community. And by doing that, and they're a mixture of lots of different generations, by doing that, they're starting to create a real hype and a real kind of sense of community and, you know, starting to organise activities and just sometimes small things like pumpkin carving competitions, sending you photos, you know what I mean? Or starting a walking challenge on Strava so that everyone can get involved.
And it's just those small things that we can do to bring our people together as a community, I think.
Shireen: Yeah. I love that. What I've taken from this conversation is that real sense of acknowledging that we're all human beings, really looking at our life stages, but that sense of community that you've just highlighted there really nicely and that sense of creating commonality where… let's focus less on age, but more on what our common commonality is, but also in celebrating the differences which we do have with any kind of protected characteristics. We like to focus on celebrating differences, but focusing on common ground. And I think with age, it's probably the same thing where actually it's about understanding where we can support each other, where the knowledge is.
So I think it's providing more opportunities to collaborate, but actively to collaborate. So if you are all in the office, five days a week, three days a week, whatever it might be, but those options for you to all to come together with purpose. And so whether that is the five ways of wellbeing or whether it is from a knowledge transfer perspective we've touched on upon a little bit today, but also understanding the different health stages that come with people's lives.
And again, that's irrespective of age because there'll always be a thing that can happen. So rather than putting a stamp onto it, just understanding that as human beings we… you know, life ebbs and flows. But that real human approach is what I'm taking from today's conversation.
Amber: Regarding the age, like how to make it work with say the 66-year-old and the 21-year-old in the office, I think it was like a clever idea to make us sit beside each other, because you would see like an older generation and try avoid them. Because you would think, “oh I've nothing in common” and stuff. So I think workplaces… like doing workshops or putting the young person and the old person together.
Shireen: Yeah.
Amber: Well, sorry, not old person, but the older generation together. It's a clever idea, because I had to catch myself talking to Hazel about taking up jeans and stuff that I would never speak to another 20-year-old about. So it makes you grow in the office. Like I'm going home and I know how to sew. I like that you're learning from the older generation, outside and inside of work.
So I think if workplaces try and encourage that. Put them together and do workshops or have coffee mornings or encourage people to have lunch together. Yeah. I think that's the way for it to make it flow a bit better.
Shireen: I love that. Really good examples. And there's obviously something happening in your workplace which is working, and they're obviously acknowledging that they need to support this journey.
Clare: And it's almost that reverse mentoring done informally, isn't it? I love that. You know, and even if it was just by fluke, call it by chance, but actually that's the best way to do it, isn't it? Because you are learning not only from each other, but life skills.
Shireen: Yeah, but I love that informality part of it. Because to your point earlier, Amber, about we do take ourselves a bit too seriously, and actually Clare, you've quite rightly highlighted, we can almost be responsible for our own seeking of a mentor.
Whether it's someone, it doesn't matter irrespective of life stage, but actually we should all have a responsibility of trying to collaborate with colleagues, and by you doing this with Hazel, that gives you an example where we could just seek someone, say, “do you want to grab a coffee”, or “I don't speak to you that much”, or “I'd love to learn from you” - whatever it might be. But just to open up that kind of team aspect. I think we put a lot of process on, and maybe it doesn't need so much process.
Amber: Yeah. Like there's a lot of stigma that work is you go to work and you go home from work. But I don't think the transport sector is really like that. Like your work, not that it's your life, but it's a big, big part of your life. So I think the stigma of you go to your job and you go home.
Shireen: Yeah.
Amber: Like I would catch your little text to me after work and then you talk about your day and it does help get free of it because you have someone to relate to. Because you go home and speak to people at home and they have no clue what's going on in transport.
Shireen: Yeah.
Amber: Like they don't understand, so being able to have a relationship with any generation within the workplace, it does make it a bit better because I know I can't speak to my friends about transport. They have no clue about it.
Shireen: No, absolutely. That's brilliant. Thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time, Amber. It's really lovely to meet you. I'd love to work with you again in the future. Sounds like you're doing some really, really good stuff. Thank you.
Thank you for joining us for this conversation on intergenerational workforces. Today's insights remind us that age is just one piece of who we are, but when we understand it, value it, and design it, we create teams that are stronger, more connected, and better prepared for the future of transport.
So please download the whitepaper. Let us know what's working in your organisation, what your thoughts are about the sector.
What could we be doing more of? Let us know. Reach out and we'll join you on the next episode.
Sonya Byers: Thank you for listening to the Women In Transport podcast. Together we're championing inclusion and celebrating the women driving change across the transport sector. To join the conversation, connect with us and explore more stories.