In this episode of the Women in Transport podcast, we’re speaking to Cecilia Harvey about microaggressions. How can you recognise microaggressions in your workplace, and help to reduce their impact?
Cecilia gives tangible examples of what microaggressions are, how they can affect those who receive them, and how we can call them out, whether we are on the receiving end or as allies.
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Cecilia Harvey is a Equity, Diversity & Inclusion Consultant, and Founder or Cultural Nexus Ltd.
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Shireen Ali-Khan
Welcome to the Women in Transport podcast. I'm your host Shireen Ai-Khan, and this is season two, where we are covering everything intersectionality. We're looking at the layers that make us who we are. We're looking at privilege, looking at oppression, and really what makes us human.
Shireen Ali-Khan
Welcome to the Women in Transport podcast. I'm your host Shireen Ali-Khan. And this time around, I'm speaking to Cecilia Harvey, and we are focusing all around microaggressions.
Cecilia, please introduce yourself, tell us about your relationship with Women in Transport. And then we'll dive into this really, really important topic.
Cecilia Harvey
Well, hello, everyone, and thank you for having me, Shireen. So I'm Cecilia Harvey, I own an Equity Diversity and Inclusion consultancy called Cultural Nexus Ltd, because I believe in connecting people through difference, and I'd like to see myself as a bit of a bridge in terms of doing so. And I believe differences are absolutely crucial to healthy societies, workplaces, schools, educational settings.
And this topic of microaggressions is one that is really close to my heart, having been on the receiving end, like I'm sure that many people who are of a minority group have. And I think it's an important way of sharing knowledge with other people and encouraging people to talk about it and to explore the topic if they're not aware of it.
Shireen Ali-Khan
I believe you're one of our mentors as well on the Advance programme, is that correct?
Cecilia Harvey
Yes, it is, indeed, and I absolutely love it. It's really important, because I think our mentorship journey, even if it's not specifically called reverse mentoring, and the mentor always learns as well from from their mentee, I find it really, really enriching.
But I think it's also something that I owe the next generation, the future generation in terms of just amplifying the possibilities that they might not see in front of them, and also giving them courage to be a role model and use their expertise, in terms of their personal brand in terms of highlighting their skills, and pushing for equity.
Shireen Ali-Khan
I love that, I love that sense of bridge building, and you mentioned that kind of mutual education. And we've of course had you as a guest on our Lead programme. So that idea of working with those that are maybe progressing also with our peers, and just really providing those opportunities for storytelling, and just bringing together all of our voices. It's a real pleasure to have you join us today.
So microaggressions, it's one of those topics where I feel like, there's a whole piece around language, and there's all these terms, which are not necessarily new, but you’re either in the know, you're not in the know, or when you hear the term microaggressions similarly to psychological safety, I feel like if you know, you know, and if you don't, it's a bit like, what is this? What are people talking about? So please, I want to cut through some of this and really go to the nitty gritty of it. What are microaggressions in the first place? How do they show up? What are these things?
Cecilia Harvey
So microaggressions are typically defined as subtle, unintentional, comments or actions. And I'm going to just quickly stop there, to mention that they can be physical and spoken and written. Let's not forget that language is a communication tool. But it also happens not just linguistically.
Shireen Ali-Khan
So it's not just verbal, it happens in other ways as well?
Cecilia Harvey
Absolutely, absolutely. But usually, when we're talking about microaggressions, they are unintentional. So they're not meant to harm or cause offence, but nonetheless, they do very often convey negativity or prejudice or stereotyping in their delivery.
I'm sure we'll come back to this, but whilst I think it's important to mention that intent is a huge piece here. And in fact, most people will, when they hear of microaggressions, or talk about them, they'll think that they're because they're unintentional, they might not harm or cause harm, because it was well-meaning, or the intent wasn't a negative one. But actually, the impact of words and actions can really be substantial, so not micro at all.
Shireen Ali-Khan
Tell me more about this. So when people say, Oh, I didn't mean that. One of the things that I always say is that our impact is never mitigated by our intent. Because I feel like people hide behind I didn't mean it.
Or when people use the term banter, what are your thoughts around that? And I was just joking. I didn't mean that you're sensitive. It was just banter. What your thoughts around that?
Cecilia Harvey
So we're coming back to the intention. So even if the intent was well-meaning, the harm can still be caused. So when someone says, Oh, I didn't mean it, or you're being sensitive, well, that's a whole bigger kettle of fish. They're sort of saying to someone, oh, you're being a bit too sensitive, but certainly when people say Oh, well, it was just banter. I was just joking. That may well be the case. In fact, in 99.9% of the cases, it's yes, absolutely. However, it doesn't mean that it was perceived in that way.
So we mustn't forget that there are layers and lenses of culture, of lived experience, of language. And these all cause filters and barriers. So even if I say something in that set in a certain way, and the intent is good, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily heard and received in that manner.
So really, the microaggression is very much defined on how the person perceives it, rather than the intent around what is said, if you see what I mean.
Shireen Ali-Khan
I love that idea around just our own responsibility around the impact that we have on other people. And owning that.
I find that with microaggressions, and just the descriptions that you've given there, they can almost lead into gaslighting, which is I didn't mean that, therefore, you're putting that guilt on the other person, well, how you perceived it is down to you. And it's that whole idea of like, I'm sorry, if you took it this way, as opposed to me being sorry for my actions.
I remember being in an environment where the person would regularly say, I've gone fishing, and if I had kind of given into the bait, therefore it was on me because that person had gone fishing. And it was just an environment where it's almost accepted that there'll be some kind of passive aggressive, some kind of microaggressions as a normal function.
I think when I have conversations like this, it reminds me of how dysfunctional those environments actually were. Because you're right, it is about the impact that we have on other people and how we make them feel. So I really like what you said there about my own personal responsibilities there.
Cecilia Harvey
Yeah, I mean, we're accountable that we need to hold ourselves accountable. And when someone has mentioned to us or someone has picked us up on something that could have caused offence, you know, there's two sides, isn't there?
So, you know, someone wasn't talking to themselves, they were talking to someone else, and therefore, there's two, there's yes, there's the receiving end, but there's also the speaking end or the behavioural end. So I think it's really important that we hold ourselves to account as to what was said, how it was said, understanding why it was misunderstood or misinterpreted.
And using that knowledge, you know, knowledge is something so fantastic. It's a springboard for everything. You know, if we gain that knowledge, and we hold that knowledge, we're not going to trip up in the same way next time. And we can talk about this anecdotally, and we can share our stories, and therefore we're amplifying that, and then the next person will think, Oh, actually, if I say it in this way, it might cause me. So it's really that ripple effect of, of talking about these things, but also really almost analysing a little bit of the situation, not just going, Oh, well, they, they're a bit sensitive, or they took it wrongly, and just brush it away. Let's really reflect on learning points.
Shireen Ali-Khan
I really like what you said there around actually holding knowledge. Because I find that if we have these conversations, there has to be progress and there has to be movement. And otherwise, if you're just doing interventions, if you're just having conversations for the sake of it, but there is no movement or anything, then it becomes box ticking.
And it's just one of those things that an organisation has either you've held a webinar or you've done some form of training on it. But actually, if there's no marker to move forward from that, how do you know you've made progress? I really like that idea of, actually, we're all accountable to holding that information. And either what was appropriate at some point isn't appropriate now. But actually, those things were never appropriate. They were just accepted. And so it is about behaviour and how we evolve ourselves.
Cecilia Harvey
Yeah, absolutely. And again, I tend to say to people that you know, this is very much an introspective exercise as well. It's about self awareness. It's not about finger pointing, it's not about telling people off or, you know, slapping someone's wrist, it's very much looking at our behaviours, our way of expressing ourselves, our language. And again, even if it's not intentional, and again, let's add those layers of culture, of values, of beliefs. it's different everywhere.
And I think if we want to keep that connection, and you'll probably hear me saying that word a lot because I'm pro connecting people and talking about differences and being curious about difference. And that means respecting it. And that means learning from our mistakes, and doing better.
Shireen Ali-Khan
Tell me more about that idea of doing better about learning from our mistakes? And that leaning into curiosity? I wanted to hear more about that.
Cecilia Harvey
Yeah, so working in the DEI space, I think it's all about being curious. And I often say respectful curiosity is never a bad thing. So if you don't know about something, a topic, you know, if you don't understand pronouns, if your generation was one where all this new terminology wasn't present, if you are respectful in asking, in informing yourself, educating yourself again, it's about you and my grandmother, my Nona, what would you say to me Cecilia the only day that you should stop learning because the day you die, you know, we should constantly be in a, or I would wish that everybody is in a constant state of I want to do better, I want to learn, and I don't want to really close the door and go, Hey, that's great. I know it all, I've got everything.
So I think that respectful curiosity into other people's lived experience, situations, challenges, racial experiences, ethnic backgrounds, whatever that may be. If we are curious about things and learn, we will then also be able to pivot really effectively in our interactions with people who are different to us. We'll have gained that knowledge.
And again, you know, we mentioned it earlier, but keeping that knowledge and storing it and making sure that we challenge ourselves to do better. You know, knowledge is something that will help you learn and grow.
And so there is the what next? And the what next is, let's put it into practice. Let's see how that translates: I've learned something, I made a mistake, what am I going to do about it? And I think if you're curious, and you lean into that, and also lean into criticism, you know, or being pulled up about something. That's absolutely fine, if someone speaks up against you and says that when you mentioned this or said this or used this word, it could cause offence, lean into it, don't take it personally, they are also trying to keep connections and conversations going, and they're trying to support you, in giving you a piece of, a golden nugget of information that you can then use not to fall into that same pitfall.
Shireen Ali-Khan
So on that piece of education, if you have been on the receiving end of a microaggression, how would you recommend people call it out?
Cecilia Harvey
I think instinctively, we do want to call it out, we want to show that it's a comment that's aggravated us. And that's instinctive and that's your gut feeling. However, that severs connection, that erects barriers, and the communication is just stifled.
There is a very clever and effective, easy, I think, or well, it depends, but could be easy compared to what people think it takes no investment financially, it's just effort from a personal point of view, to call it in, and calling it in means saying to someone, oh, sorry, can you, can you just repeat that? Did I hear you , did I understand you correctly?
Or very often, psychologists have proven that if we hear something, send it back to us. Very often, it can sound different to how we meant to say it. So again, give people the opportunity to especially if you feel that the comment has been unintentionally made, or the behaviour has been displayed to you unintentionally, then I would strongly suggest to take a step back and allow that person or give that person the opportunity to step back and say, Oh, my goodness, no, I can understand how you might have heard this, but that's not what I meant. And then the connection isn't lost.
And then you can talk about perspective, you can talk about why someone misinterpreted it, and why someone thought that they weren't being, didn't cause a microaggression. And then you learn something about another person. And that helps you navigate relationships with anyone around you.
We live in societies which are so connected and so fast paced. And I think that is actually the sort of pace at which we have to communicate and live and be online and switch from one call to the next and the next day is in the office. And then it's hybrid, and then it forces us to not reflect as much in our language and in our behaviours towards others, I think.
And so sometimes setting yourself a bit of a slower pace, and taking the time to understand what that person was trying to say, and also take time to have that conversation. If someone says something that has offended you, explain why.
Shireen Ali-Khan
One of the things that I find in microaggressions is that you often can't put a name to it because it is a behaviour, it's body language or something like that. And you can't necessarily label it.
So when you're in that space, and you're not quite sure, or you're feeling a bit smaller, a bit intimidated by it. How can you call it out? What space do we have for allies of calling out where the burden isn't just on you? What is the role of other people in those environments who pick it up , who notice, who believe you are willing to hear you? What can we do to be allies for each other?
Cecilia Harvey
Absolutely. And I think what you've described that very often it's this happens in hierarchical organisations or when there's a power play, when you might also be junior and the person who has done the microaggression towards you. It can come, as you say, it can make you feel uncomfortable and small.
So allyship is absolutely crucial here, and amplifying voices and talking about things and pulling our colleagues up whatever the level and the rank in the appropriate manner, I think is crucial. And therefore, role modelling allyship is also really important because it does have a ripple effect. So if you see something like that, and you don't have to do it publicly, everyone is different. And not everyone feels comfortable in a particular setting, and actually, maybe a senior manager, or a good senior manager would not do it publicly. But they will take the person afterwards aside and have a little check in, and again, in an appropriate manner, that still highlights the importance of the conversation around this.
So, you know, not telling the person off necessarily, but saying I wanted to draw your attention to when you said this, it can be misperceived, maybe check in with the person to make sure that they're okay. Because I'm pretty sure that you might have caused offence.
And I think what’s really important from the allyship point of view is validating someone else's feelings, making sure that the other person or that person's feelings on the receiving end, if you're the ally, you need to validate them, because in that moment, they couldn't do so themselves.
Shireen Ali-Khan
Absolutely, you're right. The role that we have, when we see these things taking place for other people, I think it then goes back to what we're saying in that wider sense of being accountable for the impact that we have on people. And that inaction is still an impact that we're having on people. And so being an ally is so crucial. If you see something, you're right, you don't have to call it up in that moment, didn't call it out privately, and there are ways to do it. But I think there has to be a conversation where we're all looking after each other. We're all being allies for one another. And that sounds like a really tangible way that you've just described there.
Cecilia Harvey
I think it also, if I can just add, sometimes it can be advisable, depending also on the cultural setting. But it can also be advisable not to be the ally, necessarily publicly. Because, and you might have come across conversations with people saying, well, you know, I don't want a white saviour, or I don't want a knight in shining armour to save me because that also can belittle.
If someone doesn't feel that, in that moment, they can speak up, they don't necessarily want someone to stand up and shout at the person publicly. So I think actually it depends what type of manager or what type of person the ally is, but I think very often, that can also be perceived wrongly.
So I think navigating these things is not easy. Don't get me wrong. I don't think interactions with people who are different to us, who have different challenges, lived experiences, have suffered maybe different types of abuse, racially or because of another sort of belonging to another minority group. But I think it's really important that allyship, again, isn't about making that public display. Allyship can also be in the background. Allyship is also role modelling things and behaviours.
So yeah, I think to your point, it needs to be done in the appropriate way. Because we want these pieces of learning to then be amplified, and for people to then be able to connect with other people better.
Shireen Ali-Khan
Yeah, I love that. I love that sense of just maintaining connection. And there's different ways that we can do this from what I'm hearing from what you're saying.
Sonya Byers
Hello! I'm Sonya Byers, Chief Exec of Women in Transport, and you're listening to the Women in Transport podcast. I'm proud of the work we're doing together to create a safe space for different women working in transport to share their stories. You can find details on how to join the conversation in the episode shownotes.
Shireen Ali-Khan
You mentioned lived experience. We've mentioned topics around abuse, and we've gone around how these things might present themselves. Can you give me some really tangible examples of microaggressions? I know we said before, where it isn't all verbal, sometimes it is physical, sometimes it is just mental. How does it show up for people who might not necessarily know how to pick it up?
Cecilia Harvey
Yes, there's obviously the overt way, which is usually the verbal way. But sometimes they are less noticeable, or they're things that we don't think are microaggressions.
So an environmental setting for a particular group, for example, could be a microaggression. So always, for example, making a Friday meetup in a pub. So for groups of people for whom their religion doesn't involve the consumption of alcohol and for people who adhere even more strictly, they shouldn't be around or in an environment. So that could be considered a microaggression towards people of that faith, especially if it's constant, and if there is no alternative for them to socially mix.
Another example would be in terms of behaviour if someone is giving a presentation. And one or more of their colleagues is looking at their phone throughout the whole presentation. That's a microaggression. Because that is a display of translating words, such as what you're presenting is not of interest to me. I don't believe that it's important. And really, I don't respect you, it's a sign of disrespect and microaggressions very often display in that way.
So it's not just the verbal, or I'm really surprised your English is very good.
Shireen Ali-Khan
Oh I've had that loads of times! I'm from East London, that's why I can speak English!
Cecilia Harvey
So have I! But you know, and those maybe are more obvious ones, but there are the subtle ones. And there are things like, also, microinvalidations as a type of microaggression. So where you're invalidating someone's experience, and you're making it seem as if it's not relevant, and it's not important. So I think, and that again can be done really subtly.
And one would hope that if it's unintentional, again it can be rectified. So an apology, or a sort of acknowledgment of an offence caused, can then mean that the connection isn't lost.
Shireen Ali-Khan
Some great examples there. I'd like to now talk a bit about culture and how that maybe provides some different nuances. You mentioned around environments around team meetups and stuff like that. Some of the examples that I've heard before is around things like hair touching. And these might be popular ones that people have heard about. What are some others, and maybe we'll pick up on those examples? But what are some other more culturally specific? microaggressions?
Cecilia Harvey
Yes, I mean, where do you start? Because culture is such a big umbrella term, isn't it? It's values, it’s beliefs, it’s religion, and a lot of the time, most of the cultural aspects, we don't see. So I think it becomes even trickier to navigate microaggressions because a lot of cultural elements are not immediately visible.
But I would say certainly, in cultures, for example, where I don't know looking at someone in the eyes is considered as a sign of disrespect, so being culturally aware of some of those nuances, or for example, saying to someone or accusing someone of never contributing. Well, in some cultures, unless you are asked by name specifically, for example, Shireen, can you tell me what you think is not considered appropriate.
So I think being aware of culture, being aware of power dynamics, being aware of work preferences, and I think also touching is a big thing. You know, physical, spatial space is a really big thing. A lot of cultures do not appreciate being physically in physical proximity, let alone being touched. And the hair one absolutely is a typical one, I think, especially for ethnic minorities, maybe of African descent, or, you know, whose people have a fascination, maybe. My daughter gets that quite a lot.
However, it's not for everyone and doing something rather than, well, again, I think it's tricky, because even asking permission is a little bit odd. Because if you wouldn't to someone else, why would you to that person?
Shireen Ali-Khan
What do you tell your daughter? If she gets that quite a lot? What do you tell her?
Cecilia Harvey
Well, I don't need to really tell her anything. She is quite feisty, but she will always say, I don't appreciate that. And also, it's not a novelty. You know, those types of behaviours are almost like the old fascination of social anthropologists going into a tribe, you know, it's not that and I think, you know, someone's identity, someone's body, someone's physical being is for them, and them only, unless they state otherwise.
You know, I'm half Italian, and certainly in the Italian culture, absolutely, you go up to someone, even people that you don't know, you might kiss them, you might shake their hand, etc, etc, there's a lot of sort of slapping on your shoulder and tapping and things like that. But that is part of that culture, which doesn't necessarily mean that if you are comfortable with elements of your culture that everyone else will be, or that they understand it.
You know, things, especially, especially physical things can very often be misinterpreted, and can cause even feelings of feeling scared. If your culture is very respectful of people's space, of your personal space, and suddenly you have someone who is invading your space and is touching you, it might make them feel incredibly unsafe.
So I think there's all those elements to take into account. And again, navigating culture isn't necessarily easy, but I think the more we educate ourselves, learn from others, expose ourselves to difference, make conscious efforts to be curious about about difference and learn about that. Because you know, it will, it will certainly allow you to make less faux pas than if you didn't have that knowledge.
Shireen Ali-Khan
That was excellent. And you started touching upon this. Where can people go to educate themselves? And we said about exposing ourselves to other lived experiences and other stories. If you're somebody who doesn't necessarily know where to go to get that information, what do you do?
Cecilia Harvey
That's a really good question. My instinctive response would be Google.
Shireen Ali-Khan
And actually to add to that, what responsibility do workplaces have? Because that's where most people will congregate. So you as the individual, and you as an employer, where's that collective responsibility to exposing ourselves to different situations and people and cultures, etc?
Cecilia Harvey
Yeah, I think from an individual point of view, the resources are there, you just need to have the will and take accountability for finding those things out.
But certainly from an employer's point of view, from creating psychologically safe spaces, making space for these conversations on any D&I topic is crucial. Pushing through the discomfort, because some topics are very delicate. Personal identity is incredibly sacrosanct to every individual.
And again, just being part of a minority doesn't mean that your experience is the same as everyone else's, just because you're in that minority group. So you know, you and I are both females of colour, but it doesn't mean that just because we are put into that box, that our experiences are exactly the same.
So I think highlighting that, and I know you talk a lot about intersectionality. But that is another way of understanding just how many layers and intricacies there are in someone's identity, but from an employer's point of view, do not only hold things as lunch and learns, because that says it's not important. It's a translation. Make spaces, push back on this rhetoric currently around, you know, D&I efforts are nonsense and all of this, because actually, the future of your organisation relies on your biggest asset, and that is your people. And if you don't value and respect your people, and if they don't know how they contribute, and that their contribution is valid, regardless of their background, social economic status, or anything like that, you will be on a losing streak, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not in two years, but for sure, as a business, and the newer generations especially are intolerant of any form of wrongdoing and discrimination in this sense.
So I think from an employer's point of view, make those spaces. You know, it's easy. Put a library on your intranet page of resources, links, videos, YouTube clips, TEDx talks, I mean, the info is there. Certainly, if you're part of an ERG, an employee resource group, again make sure that those pages are easily accessible and findable in your organisation. Don't allow things to just be an afterthought. After 10 clicks, you get to the place. No ,they need to be prominent, they need to be visible, and certainly to use elements in the sort of D&I calendar, for example, to amplify the importance of these conversations.
Shireen Ali-Khan
I love that, again, really tangible things that employers can, steps that they can take to make this information accessible, but also to make it part of their culture, that this is just how we do things.
And you're quite right in saying that different generations have different narratives and different levels of what people find acceptable. And one of the campaigns we're running later in the year actually is all around intergenerational workforces, because we know life expectancy is going up, retirement age will be non-existent at some point. Because we can kind of see where things are going. But also we've got younger people coming into organisations and every age in between deserves to have a really good experience in the workplace.
How can we support everyone? One of the things that we've kind of touched upon that we haven't necessarily delved into really deeply and you did say around some of the consequences that employers can have by not dealing with these things.
But tell me around how microaggressions impact a person who perhaps hasn't been able to deal with it for whatever reason, but what does that look like down the road? And, you know, we've spoken before about microaggressions being seen as death by 1,000 cuts, which is a phrase that really stuck with me when I first heard it, what does that look like?
Cecilia Harvey
It looks like pain, you know, it's words, really, really, truly, and behaviours and actions but can really, really be harmful. And the effects of these, because they are cumulative, and very often someone who's exposed to microaggression a lot in the workplace, but also in other spheres of their life. So in society, in public transport, at school with other parents at the school gates, wherever that may be, that's cumulative.
So it starts at a sort of really negative spiral around emotional and psychological effects such as stress and anxiety, lowered self esteem, depression. Again, when it's really compounded, it can lead to that, but also physical issues, because if we think about it, when we're stressed, and now we can see, for example, in the workplace, when people experience burnout, yeah, it then translates, let's say, into a physical effect. So, you know, physical and health issues such as stress related health problems, or fatigue, because maybe your sleep isn't as good because you're stressed. It can also affect your digestion, because your eating patterns maybe change. And also in terms of exposing yourself in society and allowing yourself to be part of society. So you will tend to want to be isolated if you feel invalidated as a person, if you feel that you're not worthy and you're not valued. That will compound maybe into feeling, having trust issues, so not wanting to expose yourself to social gatherings or at work and outside. But I think also, from an organization's point of view, and from a manager's point of view, it will impact your team's performance. That person's performance will dip, whether in school, university or in an organisation. And they will, and because of the isolation, they will try to reduce their participation, because they will feel that what they say, or how they behave, will be invalidated.
And then obviously, that all leads into and connects back again with mental health, because it's about identity, isn't it? So it's really that you will start doubting whether your identity is important, whether it's valid, whether it fits in, and so self doubt will really bleed in, in this scenario.
So I would say it's social, it's physical, and it's mental. So the three effects often, unfortunately, are linked. But when you, you know, you mentioned that expression, death by 1,000 cuts. And we can imagine that, so you get one small cut, it's easy to put a plaster on it. But when it's constant, and it's multiple, and that becomes the majority of your reality, we can soon see how that can have really negative effects on people.
Shireen Ali-Khan
This is such a big topic in a way, but also when you start breaking down the fundamentals of it, it's a really accessible topic.
But Cecilia, for our listeners, three things, three takeaways, things that they can just do right now to either deal with the situation, or just a way to kind of move forward with microaggressions, what would your recommendations be?
Cecilia Harvey
The first one is continue or start defending, to be respectfully curious. Be curious about difference, because you will learn a lot and in that you will learn what things might cause offence to which culture, to which minority group, in which social setting, etc, etc. So really the educational piece of informing oneself.
The second, I think, will be create the spaces. Push for those spaces, if they're not there in the workplace, push for them. There will be other people in your organisation who also want that. So the sharing of knowledge. So I'd say gain knowledge, number one, share knowledge, number two, and three, I would say be an ally, be a good ally, and find other allies to role model behaviours that we feel are important, but also align them to your organization's culture.
You know, to actually touch on culture or company culture, values and beliefs, it's no point in having it as a beautiful strapline on your website if then people don't live it. So challenge that, if you don't see that, what is it nice and shiny on your website? If you don't see it, and the reality is different or is experienced differently by others, that's definitely a moment to take the baton and say, we need to do something about this.
Shireen Ali-Khan
Brilliant, thank you, so much food for thought there. And I hope our listeners have learned a lot on a topic, which I thought I knew about, actually. But in this conversation, I've learned so much more. I hope you have as well. Thank you Cecilia for your time today and join us on the next episode of the Women in Transport podcast.
Cecilia Harvey
Thank you so much for having me.